Stephanus 19

19a Socrates: And how we said that the children of the good must be reared, and those of the bad handed over in secret to the other rank of the city; and that those who watched the children as they grew must always be bringing the worthy back up, and transferring the unworthy among their own charges to the place of those who had gone back?

Timaeus: So it was.

Socrates: Have we passed through it all, then, as yesterday when we went back over the main points—or do we still long for anything that was said, my dear Timaeus, as left out?

19b Timaeus: Not at all; that was exactly what was said, Socrates.

Socrates: You may hear, then, what comes next about the city we went through, and what state I find myself in toward it. My feeling is something like this: as if one who had seen beautiful creatures, whether wrought by a painter's art or truly alive and at rest, should come to long to see them in motion, and contending in some struggle of those things that seem to belong 19c to their bodies—just so have I fared toward the city we went through. Gladly would I hear someone unfold in speech the contests this city contends in, as she matches herself against other cities—coming to war as is fitting, and in the waging of it rendering what befits her upbringing and nurture, both in her deeds of action and in her addresses to each city in words. This much, then, Critias and Hermocrates, 19d I have determined about myself: that I could never become capable of praising adequately those men and that city. Mine is nothing to wonder at; but I have formed the same judgment about the poets of things long past and of things present—not that I dishonor the poetic tribe, but it is plain to all that the mimetic kind will imitate best and most easily whatever stock it has been reared among, while what lies outside each man's nurture 19e is hard for him to imitate well in deeds, and harder still in words. The tribe of sophists, again, I take to be very practiced in many fine speeches of other kinds; yet I fear that, wanderers as they are from city to city, never having managed a dwelling of their own anywhere, they may miss the mark alike with philosophers and with men of politics, as to all that such men, dealing with each in deed and word amid war and its battles, would do and say.

Socrates: So there has been left over the stock of your own formation,

19a Socrates: And also that we said the children of the good ones must be raised, while the children of the bad ones must be handed out secretly to the rest of the city; and as the children grow up, the rulers must always keep watch and bring the worthy ones up again, while moving their own unworthy ones into the place of those who return?

Timaeus: That is so.

Socrates: So have we now gone through everything, by taking it again in outline just as yesterday, or are we still missing something from what was said, my dear Timaeus?

19b Timaeus: Not at all. Those were exactly the things that were said, Socrates.

Socrates: Then hear what I want to say next about the state we described, and what my own feeling about it is. My feeling is something like this. Suppose someone saw beautiful animals, whether made by a painter or really alive but keeping still, and longed to see them in motion and competing in the contests that suit 19c their bodies. I have that very same feeling about the state we described. I would gladly hear someone telling in words about the contests that a state takes part in, and see this state competing against other states: going to war in a fitting way, and in the fighting living up to its education and upbringing, in what it does in action and in what it says in words, with each of the other states. So, Critias and Hermocrates, 19d I have passed judgment on myself that I could never be able to praise these men and this city well enough. And there is nothing surprising about that in my case; but I have formed the same opinion about the poets of long ago and the poets of today—not that I look down on the poet's craft, but everyone can plainly see that the class of imitators imitates most easily and best whatever they were raised on, while whatever lies outside each one's upbringing 19e is hard to imitate well in deeds and even harder in words. As for the class of sophists, I consider them very practiced in many other fine speeches, but I am afraid that, since they roam from city to city and never keep a home of their own, they may miss the mark of what philosophical men and statesmen would do and say in deed and in word in their dealings with each group of people, when they act in war and in battles.

Socrates: What is left is the kind of people you are,

19a Socrates: And do you recollect further how we said that the offspring of the good were to be reared, but those of the bad were to be sent privily to various other parts of the State; and as these grew up the rulers should keep constantly on the watch for the deserving amongst them and bring them back again, and into the place of those thus restored transplant the undeserving among themselves?

Timaeus: So we said.

Socrates: May we say then that we have now gone through our discourse of yesterday, so far as is requisite in a summary review; or is there any point omitted, my dear, which we should like to see added?

19b Timaeus: Certainly not: this is precisely what was said, Socrates.

Socrates: And now, in the next place, listen to what my feeling is with regard to the polity we have described. I may compare my feeling to something of this kind: suppose, for instance, that on seeing beautiful creatures, whether works of art or actually alive but in repose, a man should be moved with desire to behold them in motion and vigorously engaged in some such exercise as seemed suitable to their physique; 19c well, that is the very feeling I have regarding the State we have described. Gladly would I listen to anyone who should depict in words our State contending against others in those struggles which States wage; in how proper a spirit it enters upon war, and how in its warring it exhibits qualities such as befit its education and training in its dealings with each several State whether in respect of military actions or in respect of verbal negotiations. And herein, Critias and Hermocrates, 19d I am conscious of my own inability ever to magnify sufficiently our citizens and our State. Now in this inability of mine there is nothing surprising; but I have formed the same opinion about the poets also, those of the present as well as those of the past; not that I disparage in any way the poetic clan, but it is plain to all that the imitative tribe will imitate with most ease and success the things amidst which it has been reared, whereas it is hard for any man to imitate well in action what lies outside the range of his rearing, 19e and still harder in speech. Again, as to the class of Sophists, although I esteem them highly versed in many fine discourses of other kinds, yet I fear lest haply, seeing they are a class which roams from city to city and has no settled habitations of its own, they may go wide of the mark in regard to men who are at once philosophers and statesmen, and what they would be likely to do and say, in their several dealings with foemen in war and battle, both by word and deed.

Thus there remains only that class which is of your complexion—