Stephanus 18

18a who were ruled by them and were by nature friends, but turning harsh in battle upon the enemies they met?

Timaeus: Exactly so, in every respect.

Socrates: For we said, I take it, that the guardian's nature in the soul had to be at once high-spirited and philosophical in a marked degree, so that toward the two kinds he could become rightly both gentle and severe.

Timaeus: Yes.

Socrates: And what of nurture? Were they not to be reared throughout in gymnastic and music, and in all the learning that belongs to these?

18b Timaeus: Quite so.

Socrates: And of those so reared it was said, I believe, that they must reckon neither gold nor silver nor any other possession as their own, but that, like auxiliaries in hire, they should take from those they keep safe a wage for their watchkeeping—so much only as a temperate man calls moderate—spend it in common, and live, boarding together with one another, keeping their care on virtue at all times, and leaving every other trade to others.

Timaeus: That too was said in just this way.

18c Socrates: And we made mention of the women as well: that their natures, being akin to the men's, were to be fitted to the same pursuits, and that all employments were to be given to all of them in common, in war and in the whole manner of their life.

Timaeus: So it was said, and this too.

Socrates: What of the begetting of children? Is it not easy to remember because of the strangeness of what was said—that we made marriages and children common to all among all, contriving that no one should ever come to know his own child as his in private, 18d while all counted all the children kin of their own blood: brothers and sisters every one who came within the proper age, and those before and above them parents and parents' parents, and those in the line below children and children's children?

Timaeus: Yes, and as you tell it, easy to remember.

Socrates: And do we remember how, that the natures might from the first turn out as good as possible, we said the rulers, men and women alike, must contrive the joining of marriages in secret 18e by means of certain lots, so that the bad should be matched with the bad and the good with the good, each with their like, and that no hatred arise among them on this account, they being led to believe that chance was the cause of each pairing?

Timaeus: We remember.

18a the people they rule, who are their friends by nature, but harsh in battle toward the enemies they run into.

Timaeus: Entirely so.

Socrates: For we said, I believe, that the guardians need a certain kind of character in their soul: at once spirited and also fond of learning and wisdom, to an unusual degree, so that they can be rightly gentle with one group and harsh with the other.

Timaeus: Yes.

Socrates: And what about their upbringing? Were they not raised on physical training and on music, and on the studies that go with these?

18b Timaeus: Certainly.

Socrates: And it was said, I think, that people raised this way must never think of gold or silver or any other possession as their own private property, but must take pay for their guarding from the people they keep safe, like hired soldiers, as much as is reasonable for sensible people, spend it together, live with one another, keep their care on excellence of character at all times, and have no leisure for the other pursuits.

Timaeus: That is exactly how those things were said too.

18c Socrates: And we also mentioned the women, saying that the women whose natures match the men's are the ones to be paired with them, and that all the pursuits must be given in common to all of them, both in war and in the rest of life.

Timaeus: That is how that was said as well.

Socrates: And what about having children? Or is this one easy to remember because it was so unusual: that we made marriages and children common to everyone, and arranged things so that no one would ever learn privately which child was his own, 18d while all would believe that all of them were of one stock, brothers and sisters to one another for everyone within the right age, parents and grandparents for those born before and above them, and children and children's children for those below them?

Timaeus: Yes, those are easy to remember too, just as you say.

Socrates: And do we remember how we said that the men and women in charge must arrange the coming together of the marriages secretly, 18e by means of certain lots, so that the bad are grouped apart and the good are each grouped with their own kind, and so that no one bears a grudge against them for it, since they think chance is the cause of the pairing?

Timaeus: We remember.

18a but show themselves stern in battle towards all the enemies they encounter.

Timaeus: Very true.

Socrates: For we said, as I think, that the soul of the Guardians ought to be of a nature at once spirited and philosophic in a superlative degree, so that they might be able to treat their friends rightly with leniency and their foes with sternness.

Timaeus: Yes.

Socrates: And what of their training? Did we not say that they were trained in gymnastic, in music, and in all the studies proper for such men?

Timaeus: Certainly.

18b Socrates: And it was said, I believe, that the men thus trained should never regard silver or gold or anything else as their own private property; but as auxiliaries, who in return for their guard-work receive from those whom they protect such a moderate wage as suffices temperate men, they should spend their wage in common and live together in fellowship one with another, devoting themselves unceasingly to virtue, but keeping free from all other pursuits.

Timaeus: That too was stated as you say.

18c Socrates: Moreover, we went on to say about women that their natures must be attuned into accord with the men, and that the occupations assigned to them, both in war and in all other activities of life, should in every case be the same for all alike.

Timaeus: This matter also was stated exactly so.

Socrates: And what about the matter of child-production? Or was this a thing easy to recollect because of the strangeness of our proposals? For we ordained that as regards marriages and children all should have all in common, so that no one should ever recognize his own particular offspring, but all should regard all 18d as their actual kinsmen—as brothers and sisters, if of a suitable age; as parents and grandparents, if more advanced in age; and as children and children’s children, if junior in age.

Timaeus: Yes, this also, as you say, is easy to recollect.

Socrates: And in order that, to the best of our power, they might at once become as good as possible in their natural characters, do we not recollect how we said that the rulers, male and female, in dealing with marriage-unions must contrive to secure, by some secret method of allotment, 18e that the two classes of bad men and good shall each be mated by lot with women of a like nature, and that no enmity shall occur amongst them because of this, seeing that they will ascribe the allotment to chance?

Timaeus: We recollect.