Book VII, 539–541

539a life could he reasonably turn except the one that flatters him?”

“There is none,” he said.

“So, I think, he will appear to have become lawless after once being law-abiding.”

“Necessarily.”

“Is it not, then, natural for people who take up arguments in this way to be affected so? And, as I was just saying, do they not deserve a great deal of sympathy?”

“And pity too,” he said.

“Then if you wish to spare your thirty-year-olds this pity, you must take every precaution when you introduce them to arguments.”

“Certainly,” he said. 539b

“Is it not one substantial precaution to keep them from tasting these arguments when they are young? I think you must have noticed how, as soon as young men get a taste of argument, they treat it as a game, forever using it to contradict. Imitating those who refute them, they refute others in turn, delighting like puppies in dragging and tearing at everyone nearby with their arguments.”

“Exceedingly so,” he said.

“And after they have refuted many people and been refuted by many, 539c they fall violently and quickly into believing nothing of what they believed before. This brings both them and philosophy as a whole into disrepute with others.”

“Very true,” he said.

“But an older man,” I said, “would be unwilling to take part in that madness. He will imitate someone who wants to pursue dialogue and examine the truth rather than someone who contradicts for the pleasure of playing a game. He himself will be more measured, 539d and he will bring greater esteem instead of disgrace to the pursuit.”

“Right,” he said.

“Was it not with precisely this caution in mind that we said earlier that those admitted to argument must have orderly, stable natures, rather than admitting, as happens now, any chance person with no fitness for it?”

“Certainly,” he said.

“Is it enough, then, for them to spend twice as many years as they did in physical training, devoting themselves steadily and intently to argument and doing nothing else, while pursuing a corresponding kind of exercise? 539e”

“Do you mean six years,” he said, “or four?”

“Never mind,” I said, “make it five. After that you must send them down into the cave again and require them to hold military commands and all the offices proper to young men, so that they do not lag behind the others in experience. And in these duties too 540a they must be tested, to see whether they remain firm when pulled in every direction, or are shaken at all.”

“How long,” he asked, “do you allot to this?”

“Fifteen years,” I said. “Then, when they reach fifty, those who have survived and excelled in every way, both in action and in learning, must at last be brought to their goal. They must be compelled to turn the radiance of the soul upward and look upon the thing that gives light to all; and when they have seen the Good itself, they must take it as their model and order the city, its citizens, 540b and themselves throughout the rest of their lives, each in turn. They will spend most of their time in philosophy; but when their turn comes, each must shoulder the burdens of public affairs and govern for the city's sake, treating it not as a distinction but as a necessity. So, after always educating others like themselves to take their places as guardians of the city, they will depart to dwell in the Isles of the Blessed. The city will establish memorials and offer sacrifices 540c to them at public expense—if the Pythia concurs, as to divine spirits; if not, as to blessed and godlike human beings.”

“How splendidly you have fashioned your rulers, Socrates,” he said, “like a sculptor making statues!”

“And the women rulers too, Glaucon,” I said. “Do not imagine that anything I have said applies more to men than to women whose natures prove capable.”

“Right,” he said, “if indeed they share everything equally with the men, as we agreed. 540d”

“Well, then,” I said, “do you grant that what we have said of the city and its constitution is not merely a wish? It is difficult, but possible in some way, and in no other way than we have described: when genuine philosophers come to power in a city, whether several or just one, and despise the honors now prized, judging them servile and worthless, while holding what is right 540e and the honors arising from it in highest esteem, and justice as the greatest and most indispensable thing of all. Serving justice and fostering its growth, they will set their own city in order.”

“How?” he asked.

“All those in the city,” I said, “who are older than ten 541a they will send into the countryside; they will take their children away from the ways of life that now prevail, which their parents too follow, and bring them up in their own ways and laws, of the kind we described earlier. In this way the city and constitution we spoke of will be established most quickly and easily; the city itself will flourish, and it will bring the greatest benefit to the people among whom it arises.”

“Very much so,” he said. “And I think, Socrates, you have described well how it would come about, if it ever did. 541b”

“Have our arguments now said enough,” I asked, “about this city and the man who resembles it? For it is plain enough what sort of man we shall say he must be.”

“Plain enough,” he said. “And the question you ask seems to me settled.”

539a life is he likely to turn to except the one that flatters him?”

“No other kind,” he said.

“So I imagine he will seem to have gone from law-abiding to lawless.”

“He must.”

“Then isn’t it natural for people who take up arguments this way to suffer this? And, as I said just now, don’t they deserve a great deal of understanding?”

“And pity,” he said.

“Then if you don’t want to have to pity your thirty-year-olds, you must take every precaution when you introduce them to argument.”

“Certainly,” he said. 539b

“Isn’t one important precaution to keep them from tasting it while they’re young? I’m sure you’ve noticed that when young men first get a taste for arguments, they treat them as a game. They use them constantly to contradict people. They imitate those who question others and start questioning people themselves. Like puppies, they delight in grabbing at whoever is nearby and tearing them apart with arguments.”

“They certainly do,” he said.

“After they have refuted many people and many have refuted 539c them, they quickly come to believe strongly in nothing they believed before. The result is that they themselves, and philosophy as a whole, get a bad name among everyone else.”

“That’s quite true,” he said.

“An older person,” I said, “would not want to take part in that sort of frenzy. They would rather imitate someone who wants to discuss a question and find the truth than someone who plays at arguing and contradicting others for fun. They will be more moderate themselves 539d and make the practice more respected, not less.”

“That’s right,” he said.

“And wasn’t everything we said earlier meant to safeguard this as well? Those allowed to take part in arguments must have orderly, steady characters. We cannot let just anybody with no proper aptitude come in, as they do now.”

“Exactly,” he said.

“Should they spend twice as many years steadily and intensely studying arguments, doing nothing else, as they earlier spent training their bodies in the corresponding way? 539e”

“Do you mean six years,” he asked, “or four?”

“It doesn’t matter,” I said. “Make it five. After that, you will have to send them back down into the cave. You must require them to take command in war and hold the offices suited to young people, so they won’t lag behind anyone in experience. And in those roles 540a you must test them again, to see whether they will hold firm when pulled in every direction or give way.”

“How long do you set aside for that?” he asked.

“Fifteen years,” I said. “When they reach fifty, those who have survived and distinguished themselves in every way, both in their actions and in their studies, must finally be brought to their goal. They must turn the light of their souls upward and look at the very thing that gives everything light. Once they have seen the Good itself, they must use it as their model. For the rest of their lives they will take turns bringing order to the city, to private citizens, 540b and to themselves. They will spend most of their time on philosophy. But when their turn comes, each will bear the burden of public affairs and govern for the city’s sake. They will do this not because it is something splendid, but because it is necessary. In this way they will always train others to be like themselves and leave them behind as the city’s guardians. Then they will depart to live on the Isles of the Blessed. The city will set up monuments and offer sacrifices 540c to them in public, if the Pythian priestess agrees, as to divine spirits. Otherwise it will honor them as blessed and godlike people.”

“Socrates,” he said, “you’ve made the rulers as beautiful as a sculptor makes statues.”

“And the women rulers too, Glaucon,” I said. “Don’t think anything I’ve said applies more to men than to women, if they have the necessary natural ability.”

“That’s right,” he said, “since, as we agreed, they will share everything equally with the men. 540d”

“Well then,” I said, “do you agree that what we have said about the city and its constitution is not just wishful thinking? It is hard to achieve, but possible in some way, and only in the way we described. It will happen when true philosophers, one or more of them, come to power in a city. They will look down on today’s honors as degrading and worthless. They will value doing what is right 540e and the honors it brings above all else, and justice as the greatest and most necessary thing. They will serve justice and help it grow as they set up their own city.”

“How?” he asked.

“They will send everyone in the city who happens to be older than ten years

541a out into the countryside. They will take their children away from the habits their parents now have and raise them according to their own ways and laws, the ones we described earlier. In this way the city and constitution we have discussed will be established most quickly and easily. The city itself will prosper and bring the greatest benefit to the people among whom it arises.”

“Yes, a great benefit,” he said. “And I think, Socrates, you’ve explained well how it might come about, if it ever does. 541b”

“Have we now,” I said, “said enough about this city and the person who resembles it? It is surely clear what kind of person we say that must be.”

“It is clear,” he said. “And, in answer to your question, I think we’re finished.”