The General Discourse: Place, Body, and the Good

1 Hermes: “Everything that moves, Asclepius, moves within something and is moved by something, does it not?”Asclepius: “Certainly.”Hermes: “And must not that within which it moves be greater than the thing moving?”Asclepius: “It must.”Hermes: “Then what moves it is stronger than what is moved?”Asclepius: “Stronger indeed.”Hermes: “And must not the nature of that within which it moves be opposite to the nature of the thing moving?”Asclepius: “Absolutely.”

2 Hermes: “This cosmos, then, is vast: there is no body greater than it?”Asclepius: “Agreed.”Hermes: “And solid: it is filled with many other great bodies—or rather, with all the bodies there are.”Asclepius: “So it is.”Hermes: “And the cosmos is a body?”Asclepius: “A body.”Hermes: “And in motion?”

3 Asclepius: “Certainly.”Hermes: “How immense, then, must the place be in which it moves, and of what nature? Must it not be much greater, so that it can accommodate the unbroken course of its movement, and the moving body, uncramped by confinement, can continue to move?”Asclepius: “Something immeasurably vast, Trismegistus.”

4 Hermes: “And of what nature? Of the opposite nature, Asclepius, surely? The nature opposite to body is the incorporeal.”Asclepius: “Agreed.”Hermes: “Place, then, is incorporeal. And the incorporeal is either divine or God. By ‘divine’ I mean here not what is born, but what is unborn.”

5 Hermes: “If it is divine, then it has substance; but if it is God, it is beyond substance. In another sense, too, it is intelligible. For God is intelligible first to us, not to himself: what is intelligible falls within the perception of the one who understands. God, then, is not intelligible to himself, for he is not something other than the thing understood, and so cannot be understood by himself.”

6 Hermes: “To us, however, he is something other, and therefore we can understand him. If place is intelligible, it is not God but place; and if it is also God, it is not so as place, but as an active power that contains. Everything in motion moves not within something moving, but within something still; and the mover too is still, for it cannot be carried along in the same motion.”Asclepius: “How, then, Trismegistus, can things here move together with the things that move? For you said the wandering spheres are moved by the sphere that does not wander.”Hermes: “That is not motion together, Asclepius, but counter-motion. They do not move in the same way but in opposite directions; opposition holds the resistance to their motion steady.”

7 Hermes: “For resistance is a stilling of motion. Thus the wandering spheres, moving opposite to the unwandering sphere, are moved by one another, through their opposing encounter, around that very opposition, by what stands still; and it cannot be otherwise. Consider those Bears you see, neither setting nor rising, but turning about the same point. Do you suppose they move or stand still?”Asclepius: “They move, Trismegistus.”Hermes: “What kind of motion, Asclepius?”Asclepius: “One that revolves about the same point.”Hermes: “And revolution about the same point, motion around a center, is held fast by stillness. Movement around itself prevents movement beyond itself. Checked from passing beyond itself, it stands still in its movement around itself. So too the opposing course stands firm, held steady by opposition.”

8 Hermes: “I will give you an earthly example you can see with your own eyes. Consider an animal on earth—a man swimming. As the water flows, the resistance of his hands and feet becomes a point of rest for him, so that he is neither swept along with the water nor submerged beneath it.”Asclepius: “A perfectly clear example, Trismegistus.”Hermes: “Every motion, then, moves within stillness and is moved by stillness. The motion of the cosmos and of every material living creature comes about not from things outside the body, but from what is within it acting outward—whether soul, breath, or some other incorporeal thing. For a body with a soul does not move anything; indeed, no body at all does, even if it is soulless.”

9 Asclepius: “What do you mean, Trismegistus? Are wood and stones and all the other lifeless things not bodies that cause movement?”Hermes: “Not at all, Asclepius. What lies inside the body that moves a lifeless thing—is that not what moves both bodies, the one that carries and the one that is carried, rather than the body itself? Hence a lifeless thing cannot move another lifeless thing. You see how heavily the soul is burdened when it alone carries two bodies. Clearly, then, moving things are within something and are moved by something.”

10 Asclepius: “But must moving things travel through a void, Trismegistus?”Hermes: “Well said, Asclepius. Not one of the things that exist is empty. Only what does not exist is empty and devoid of existence; what exists could not exist if it were not full of existence. What has existence can never become empty.”Asclepius: “Then are there no empty things, Trismegistus—an empty bucket, an empty jar, an empty well or winepress, and the like?”Hermes: “What a profound mistake, Asclepius! You call the fullest and most replete things empty?”

11 Asclepius: “What do you mean, Trismegistus?”Hermes: “Is air not a body?”Asclepius: “A body.”Hermes: “And does this body not pass through all existing things and fill them as it passes through? And is a body not composed of the four elements? All the things you call empty, then, are full of air; and if of air, then of the four bodies. Indeed, the contrary follows from this argument: all the things you call full are empty of air, since other bodies crowd out the air and leave no room for it in their place. What you call empty, then, should be called hollow, not empty: they exist and are filled with air and breath.”

12 Asclepius: “The argument cannot be refuted, Trismegistus. Air is a body, and this body passes through all existing things and fills them as it passes through. What, then, should we call the place in which the All moves?”Hermes: “Incorporeal, Asclepius.”Asclepius: “And what is the incorporeal?”Hermes: “Mind and reason, whole and wholly embracing itself, free of every body, unerring, impassible, untouchable, standing in itself, able to contain all things and preserving all that exists. Its rays, as it were, are the Good, truth, the primal light, and the archetype of the soul.”Asclepius: “Then what is God?”Hermes: “He is none of these things, but the cause of their existence, and of the existence of all things, each and every one.”

13 Hermes: “For nonbeing has left nothing further behind: everything that comes into being comes from things that exist, not from things that do not. What does not exist has no nature capable of coming into being, but rather an incapacity to become anything; and, conversely, what exists has no nature that could make it cease to exist.”

14 Asclepius: “What do you mean by ‘cease to exist’?”Hermes: “God, then, is not mind, but the cause of mind’s existence; not breath, but the cause of breath’s existence; not light, but the cause of light’s existence. Therefore we must revere God by these two names, which belong to him alone and to no other. For none of the other beings called gods, nor any human being or spirit, can be good in even the smallest measure: only God can, and he is nothing other than this. All other things are separate from the nature of the Good; they are body and soul and have no room capable of containing the Good.”

15 Hermes: “For the Good is as vast as the existence of all that is—of bodies and incorporeal things, of things perceived and things understood. This is the Good; this is God. Do not, then, call anything else good, for that would be impious; nor ever call God anything but the Good, for that too would be impious.”

16 Hermes: “Everyone speaks of the Good, but not everyone understands what it is. For that reason, not everyone understands God; in ignorance they call gods and certain human beings good, though these could never be or become good. They are utterly unlike God, while the Good is inseparable from God, since God himself is the Good. All the other gods are called immortals, honored with the name of god; but God is the Good not by title, but by nature. For God and the Good have one nature, one lineage from which all kinds of things arise. What is good gives all things and receives nothing. God gives everything and receives nothing. Therefore God is the Good, and the Good is God.”

17 Hermes: “His other name is Father, because again he is the maker of all things. Making is the work of a father. Therefore, for those who think rightly, the greatest and most devout undertaking in life is to have children; and for a person to depart this world childless is the greatest misfortune and impiety. Such a person pays a penalty to the spirits after death. The punishment is this: the soul of the childless is condemned to a body having the nature of neither man nor woman, a thing cursed by the sun. Therefore, Asclepius, do not rejoice with anyone who is childless; instead, pity that misfortune, knowing what punishment awaits that person. Let these words, and words of this kind, serve you, Asclepius, as a foreknowledge of the nature of all things.”

1 Hermes: “Asclepius, doesn't everything that moves move in something and by something?”Asclepius: “Certainly.”Hermes: “And mustn't the thing in which it moves be larger than the thing that moves?”Asclepius: “It must.”Hermes: “Then what moves it is stronger than what is moved?”Asclepius: “Yes, stronger.”Hermes: “And mustn't the nature of the thing in which it moves be opposite to that of the moving thing?”Asclepius: “Absolutely.”

2 Hermes: “Then the universe is large, and there is no larger body?”Asclepius: “We agree on that.”Hermes: “And it is solid. It is filled with many other large bodies—indeed, with all the bodies there are.”Asclepius: “That is so.”Hermes: “And the universe is a body?”Asclepius: “A body.”Hermes: “And it moves?”

3 Asclepius: “Certainly.”Hermes: “Then how big must the place in which it moves be, and what must its nature be? Mustn't it be much larger, so that it can make room for the universe's continuous movement, without squeezing it so tightly that its movement stops?”Asclepius: “It must be something immensely large, Trismegistus.”

4 Hermes: “And what is its nature? The opposite nature, surely, Asclepius? The opposite of a body is something without a body.”Asclepius: “Agreed.”Hermes: “So place has no body. And what has no body is either divine or God. By ‘divine’ here I mean what was not born, not what was born.”

5 “If it is divine, then it has a real substance. But if it is God, then it is without substance. There is another way to understand how it can be grasped by thought. For us, God is the first thing that can be grasped by thought, though he is not such a thing to himself. What can be grasped by thought comes within the awareness of a thinker. So God cannot grasp himself by thought: he does not think of himself as something different from the thing he thinks about.

6 “But he is something different from us, and that is why we can grasp him by thought. If place can be grasped by thought, it is not God but place. Even if it is God, it is God not as a place but as a power that can hold things. Everything that moves does not move in something moving, but in something still. And whatever sets it moving is itself still; it cannot move along with what it moves.”Asclepius: “Then how can things here move along with moving things, Trismegistus? You said that the wandering spheres are moved by the sphere that does not wander.”Hermes: “Asclepius, this is not movement together but movement against each other. They do not move in the same way, but in opposite directions. Their opposition keeps the resistance to their movement still.”

7 “For resistance is a stopping of movement. That is why the wandering spheres move opposite to the non-wandering sphere: each is moved by the other in their opposing encounter, around the very point of opposition, by what remains still. It cannot happen any other way. Take the two northern constellations you see, which neither set nor rise but turn around the same point. Do you think they move, or stay still?”Asclepius: “They move, Trismegistus.”Hermes: “What kind of movement, Asclepius?”Asclepius: “Turning around the same points.”Hermes: “Rotation around the same point is movement held in place by stillness. Movement around a point prevents movement beyond that point. When movement beyond it is checked, it is held to movement around it. In this way, motion in the opposite direction also remains firmly in place, supported by that opposition.”

8 “I'll give you an example you can see on earth. Think of a land animal, a person, swimming. The water flows, but the resistance of the person's hands and feet holds the person steady, so that the water does not carry the person away or pull them under.”Asclepius: “That is a very clear example, Trismegistus.”Hermes: “So every movement takes place in stillness and is moved by something still. The movement of the universe and of every living thing made of matter is not caused by anything outside its body. It is caused by something inside, which moves the outside: a soul, a breath, or something else without a body. A living body does not move another body. In fact, no body does so, even a lifeless one.”

9 Asclepius: “What do you mean, Trismegistus? Aren't pieces of wood, stones, and all the other lifeless things bodies that move things?”Hermes: “Not at all, Asclepius. The thing inside the body that moves a lifeless object—isn't it something other than a body that moves both bodies, the one carrying and the one carried? That is why a lifeless thing cannot move a lifeless thing. You can see how heavily the soul is burdened when it has to carry two bodies on its own. So it is clear that things that move do so in something and are moved by something.”

10 Asclepius: “But must moving things move in empty space, Trismegistus?”Hermes: “Well said, Asclepius. Nothing that exists is empty. Only what does not exist is empty and has no part in existence. What exists could not exist if it were not full of existence. For what exists can never become empty.”Asclepius: “Aren't there some empty things, then, Trismegistus? An empty bucket, an empty jar, an empty well or vat, and other things like them?”Hermes: “How mistaken you are, Asclepius! You think things that are completely full are empty?”

11 Asclepius: “What do you mean, Trismegistus?”Hermes: “Isn't air a body?”Asclepius: “It is.”Hermes: “And doesn't that body pass through everything that exists and fill everything it passes through? Isn't a body made up of the four elements mixed together? So everything you call empty is full of air, and if it is full of air, it is full of the four elements as well. This also shows the reverse of what you say: everything you call full is empty of air, because other bodies crowd the air out and leave no room for it in their place. You should call the things you say are empty ‘hollow,’ not ‘empty.’ They exist, and they are full of air and breath.”

12 Asclepius: “There is no arguing with that, Trismegistus. Air is a body. This body passes through everything that exists and fills everything it passes through. So what should we call the place in which the whole universe moves?”Hermes: “Something without a body, Asclepius.”Asclepius: “Then what is something without a body?”Hermes: “It is entirely mind and reason, containing itself completely within itself. It is free of every body, does not wander, cannot be affected or touched, and remains still within itself. It can hold all things and keep everything that exists safe. Its rays, so to speak, are the good, truth, the original light, and the original form of the soul.”Asclepius: “Then what is God?”Hermes: “He is none of these things, but he is the cause of their existence, of everything's existence, and of the existence of every single thing.”

13 “God has left nothing over to nonexistence. Everything that comes into being comes from things that exist, not from things that do not exist. Things that do not exist have no natural ability to come into being; their nature is that they cannot become anything. Conversely, things that exist cannot by nature cease to exist.”

14 Asclepius: “What do you mean by saying they cannot cease to exist?”Hermes: “God, then, is not mind, but the cause of mind's existence. He is not breath, but the cause of breath's existence. He is not light, but the cause of light's existence. So we must honor God by two names that belong to him alone and to no one else. None of the other beings called gods, no human, and no divine spirit can be good to any degree. Only God can, and he is nothing other than good. Everything else is separate from the nature of the good: they are body and soul, and have no room to hold the good.

15 “The good is as great as the whole existence of everything there is, both things with bodies and things without bodies, things we can sense and things we can grasp by thought. This is the good; this is God. So do not call anything else good, or you are showing disrespect to God. And do not call God anything other than the good alone, or again you are showing disrespect to him.

16 “Everyone speaks about the good, but not everyone understands what it is. For that reason, not everyone understands God either. Out of ignorance people call the gods and some humans good, though they can never be or become good. They are as far from God as can be. The good cannot be separated from God, because God himself is the good. All the other gods are called immortal and given the name ‘god’ as a mark of honor. But God is the good not by honor but by nature. God and the good have a single nature and a single kind, from which all kinds come. Whoever is good gives everything and takes nothing. So God gives everything and takes nothing. God, then, is the good, and the good is God.

17 “His other name is Father, because he is the maker of everything. Making is what a father does. That is why, for sensible people, having children is the most important and most holy concern in life. It is the greatest misfortune and an offense against God for a person to leave human life without children. After death that person is punished by the divine spirits. The punishment is this: the childless person's soul is sentenced to enter a body whose nature is neither male nor female. That body is cursed by the sun. So, Asclepius, don't congratulate anyone who has no children. Instead, pity that person's misfortune, knowing what punishment awaits. Let these words, Asclepius, serve as a first understanding of the nature of everything.”