Book 2, Chapter 11
Original Latin
26 Tu quidem adhuc meam causam agis, sed hoc mox videro; interea, unde isti versus? non enim adgnosco.
Dicam hercle; etenim recte requiris. videsne abundare me otio?
Quid tum?
Fuisti saepe, credo, cum Athenis esses, in scholis philosophorum.
Vero, ac libenter quidem.
Animadvertebas igitur, etsi tum nemo erat admodum copiosus, verum tamen versus ab is admisceri orationi.
Ac multos quidem a Dionysio Stoico.
Probe dicis. sed is quasi dictata, nullo dilectu, nulla elegantia: Philo et †proprium nrt et lecta poëmata et loco adiungebat. itaque postquam adamavi hanc quasi senilem declamationem, studiose equidem utor nostris poëtis; sed sicubi illi defecerunt—verti enim multa de Graecis, ne quo ornamento in hoc genere disputationis careret Latina oratio.
Sed videsne, poëtae quid mali adferant?
27 lamentantis inducunt fortissimos viros, molliunt animos nostros, ita sunt deinde dulces, ut non legantur modo, sed etiam ediscantur. sic ad malam domesticam disciplinam vitamque umbratilem et delicatam cum accesserunt etiam poëtae, nervos omnis virtutis elidunt. recte igitur a Platone eiciuntur ex ea civitate, quam finxit ille, cum optimos mores et optimum rei p. statum exquireret. at vero nos, docti scilicet a Graecia, haec [et] a pueritia legimus ediscimus, hanc eruditionem liberalem et doctrinam putamus.
Musean translation
Complete machine-assisted translation from the Latin. Latin transcription by the Perseus Project, Trustees of Tufts University, CC BY-SA 4.0.
26 “So far you are arguing my case. But I shall consider that later. Meanwhile, where do those verses come from? I do not recognize them.”
“I shall tell you, by Hercules; you are right to ask. You see how much leisure I have?”
“What of it?”
“When you were in Athens, you often attended the philosophers’ lectures, I imagine.”
“Yes, and gladly.”
“Then you noticed that, although no one at that time was particularly fluent, they still interspersed their discourse with verses.”
“Dionysius the Stoic certainly used a great many.”
“Quite right. But he recited them as though reciting set lessons, without selection or elegance. Philo, by contrast, added †apt and well-chosen poems in the right places. And so, since I have grown fond of this sort of rhetorical exercise for old age, I make eager use of our own poets; but wherever they have failed me—well, I have translated a good deal from the Greek, so that Latin discourse should lack no ornament in discussions of this kind.
“But do you see what harm the poets do?
27 “They bring the bravest men before us lamenting, and soften our spirits. Then they are so delightful that we do not merely read them: we learn them by heart. When poets are added to a bad upbringing at home and a sheltered, pampered life, they cut through every sinew of courage. Plato was therefore right to banish them from the state he devised in his search for the best character and the best political order. Yet we, taught by Greece, of course, read and memorize these works from childhood, and consider this a liberal education and true learning.”
Plain English translation
Complete independent machine-assisted translation directly from the Latin. Latin transcription by the Perseus Project, Trustees of Tufts University, CC BY-SA 4.0.
26 “So far you’re arguing my side. But I’ll look at that in a moment. Meanwhile, where do those verses come from? I don’t recognize them.”
“By Hercules, I’ll tell you. You’re right to ask. You see how much spare time I have?”
“What of it?”
“When you were in Athens, you often went to the philosophers’ lectures, I suppose.”
“Yes, and I really enjoyed them.”
“So you noticed that they mixed verse into their talks, even though no one at that time was particularly rich in expression.”
“Dionysius the Stoic certainly used a lot of it.”
“Quite right. But he used it as if he were dictating a lesson, with no selection and no grace. Philo, though, selected poetry that suited the subject and brought it in where it belonged. So, since I developed a taste for this kind of speaking exercise for old age, I’ve been making eager use of our own poets. But whenever they fell short—well, I’ve translated a lot from the Greeks, so that Latin speech wouldn’t lack any embellishment in discussions of this kind.
“But do you see what harm poets do?
27 “They bring on the bravest men and show them weeping. They soften our minds. And they’re so delightful that we don’t just read them, we learn them by heart. Add poets to poor training at home and a sheltered, pampered life, and they cut every sinew of courage. So Plato is right to throw them out of the state he imagined while he was searching for the best character and the best form of government. But we, educated by Greece of course, read and memorize these works from childhood. We think this is a broad education and learning.”
About this section
Book 2, Chapter 11 is part of Tusculan Disputations by Marcus Tullius Cicero. This page sets the Latin original beside 2 direct-source translations, so any line can be checked against the source. It is part 60 of 189 in the work, which is kept in the Roman tradition.
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